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Old 07-24-2014, 12:04 PM   #1
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4Runner Drive Shaft to Zuk Pics

I have two, rear, 4Runner V6 Auto drive shafts. These are the non-cv, 42 deg joint shafts from the years 89-95.

I want to shorten them and use them in the SPOA YJ ML zuk [ 87 zuk axles and TC ].

Here is a pic of one of them;



I have some questions about shortening them please.
I will need them *about* 31 inches, which means I will need to chop off about 12" plus / minus.

Which end do you shorten? BOTH ends seem to have the last 1 1/5" of tube tapering to a smaller diameter. Is this taper on the inside of the tube too? Will the yoke [ either one ] fit the tube correctly 12" up? Here is a pic showing the taper;






I plan on grinding the weld down flush with the tube wall at the yoke. Then, using a 1/16th cut off wheel, grind the remainder of the weld at the seam until it is almost through, and Finnish separating the two pieces with a few dead-blow hammer whacks.

I will make a jig of sorts to turn the DS on, so I can check / adjust trueness with light hammer taps and a magnetic base dial gauge. I will lightly tack weld, recheck, adjust, repeat, and then weld all around.

I have read that truing can be done with heat from a MAPP torch on the high side if the tube, and quenching the red hot 1" spot with a wet rag. This process may have to be repeated many times, at both ends, but if the shaft can be brought within .003 true this way, then balancing with weights is unnecessary......so I have read.

This DS has 3 balance weights tack welded on. Depending on which end I do, 1 or 2 of the weights will be "lost". Say I shorten the non-splined end. It has 1 weight that will be "lost" on the discarded piece of tube. Should I re-weld it back on, 3 1/2" from the yoke as it was in it's original location, but on the now-shortened tube?

Alternatively, as a plan "B", I could re-tube with DOM. Anybody know what diameter DOM will work with these 4trunner yokes? This will be a DD with hopefully no vibes, so .120" wall will be thick enough, and supposedly easier to true / balance than .250" wall.

So my main questions are;

Which end to shorten?
Will the yoke [ considering the taper that I see ] fit the original tube 12" up?
About the balancing weights...are they originally put in to correct for " out of round" as in non-true tube, or are they there to balance "mass", as in discrepancies with weight of the tube / yoke combo?

Lastly, anybody have pics of a drive shaft jig, or ideas as to making one. I don't have a lathe.

Thanks for your input.

Last edited by Spokerider; 07-24-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:25 PM   #2
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The shop near me will do a cut and balance for only $70. That's what I would do. The cost of that DOM would be close to the same price. As far as diameter for DOM goes, just measure the 4runner tubes inside dimensions and get DOM the same outside diameter. Tubing is measured in outside diameter, unlike pipe which is outside diameter.

If you're gonna do it yourself (bad idea on the street) then grind the welds down, cut the tube and reweld it. I did mine myself but it's a green stickered crawler.
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:13 PM   #3
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Don't forget you need to keep the yokes at each end lined up. Otherwise they will be out of phase and the shaft will vibrate.

I was considering doing this myself too, but decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

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Old 07-24-2014, 09:28 PM   #4
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Myron at ZOR recently did 2 of these for me. Once cut the tube diameter is too large to fit the original weld area. My built it up with a weld, then turned it on the lathe to get the correct diameter for the tube to slide on. doesn't matter which end you cut, both the same. I did get chewed for not getting truck shafts as they lack the taper. x2 on taking it to a shop.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:27 PM   #5
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Thanks for the posts.

About the taper of the 4runner tube.....I picked up a 3rd 4runner DS from the wrecker [ because it was dented and cost only $10 ] and it has way more taper to the tube ends than the other two I got. The pic I posted shows the type with little taper.

I located some DOM tubing to re-tube the yokes. I'm thinking that this is the better way to go, as there is the taper issue to deal with when shortening them, and further, the tubing I found is .156" wall. This will be substantially stronger than the ?.064? 4runner tube.

As a rough guestimate as to the length of DOM required for re-tubing 4runner yokes for front and rear, it looks like 17" for the front and 7" for the rear.

The 4runner yoke diameter specs are, by my research, 2.435".
The DOM tube I have found is; 2.750"OD x .156" wall x 2.438" ID.

I am going to have a go at fitting and welding them up, and truing them with a dial gauge and torch / water. Depending upon how that goes, I may take them into the local driveline shop for balancing, or not. Because of the tight tolerances, the tube and yoke should go together very accurately and straight. I'll need to make sure the tube cuts are square. I have a 20 ton press that may come in useful.

Does anybody have pics of a drive shaft truing stand or jig? I need to make something to spin the shaft on.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:46 PM   #6
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Been thinking more about getting the yokes "in phase" when I go to re-tube the toy shafts. After reading many posts and watching you tube vids on drive shaft shortening and balancing etc, it seems that just eye-balling down the tube to make sure the yokes line up isn't nearly accurate enough.

It seems the correct way, is to have the drive shaft in a lathe and to have a tube or steel shaft the same diameter [ or .001 smaller ] than the u joint cup in place of the u-joint placed into the yoke holes. With this tube sticking out to the side, say an extra 4", you then place a level in it and make sure it's dead level with a small bubble level. Then you do the same to the other end, and by getting both yokes centers dead level, then you can be sure the yokes will be in phase when welded. Hummm. I don't have a lathe to do that.

What I did think of doing, to achieve the same effect of the yokes being dead level through their u joint holes, is that I assumed that the u joint cup's flat surfaces are perpendicular to the yoke holes they sit in. With this assumption, I placed a 19mm socket on the cup, and with a bubble level, made the plane of the u joint cup surface level. Then I filed the surface of the yoke ear so that the bubble level would sit dead level across the yoke ear, just as it would sitting on the socket. Make sense?

In doing this, to each yoke, I can be sure that the yokes holes with be truly perpendicular [ and parallel with each other ] when I am putting the yokes into the DOM tube, with the use of the bubble level of course.

However, in doing this to both drive shafts today, I did notice that the yokes were not in phase, as in; when I leveled one u joint cup surface, the one at the other end of the shaft was out by just a little bit........say the bubble was 20 percent over the line and not centered between the two lines. I found this error to be exactly the same, and by the same amount on both drive shafts. Hummmm. Not sure what that means.

How do you guys make sure that the yokes are "in phase" when shortening or re-tubing drive shafts?

Last edited by Spokerider; 07-28-2014 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:09 PM   #7
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Pics of the yokes being leveled as described above;

The yoke with 19mm socket on u joint cup;


and the same yoke with the ear filed to match the cup plane;


This is the other slip end yoke. Even though the non slip end yoke cup is level, this one is not quite level.....indicating that the yoke hole centers are not precisely "in phase" with each other;


and with the yoke ear filed to be parallel with the cup surface;\




The interesting thing, is, on the other 4runner shaft I have, this "error" is exactly the same as with this DS, by the same amount and the bubble in the level being high on the same side. I wonder if this is an intentional, built in error at the factory? if it even IS an error, or just a coincidence that both DS are this way?


And the question of the day........do I make the shortened DS with the DOM tube the same as with this error, or should I make both yokes perfectly true 'in phase"?

Last edited by Spokerider; 07-29-2014 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:20 AM   #8
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So we have no drive shaft builders / specialists here?
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spokerider View Post
So we have no drive shaft builders / specialists here?
No. We just take them to a shop and let them worry about it.

I think what you're seeing is just manufacturing tolerance. While I'm not a driveshaft specialist, my day job is mechanical design and machining. So I do know something about building mechanical gizmos. I think your alignment method will work fine. Just get the joints lined up the best you can with the level method and don't worry about it. The drive line angles are almost never perfect anyway because the suspension is always moving.

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Old 07-31-2014, 06:18 PM   #10
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Right on, thanks for your input. Yep, sounds like you know which end of a micrometer to hold, .

A guy over in Pirate posted this vid, showing use of a level for setting the yokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIZzXtRyrA

I have a question...... I have the DOM tube, and the yokes will be a .005" interference fit....about perfect. I need a torch to heat up the DOM before mating the yoke to tube. Will propane get this tube hot enough? Do I need Mapp? My O2 / acetylene tanks have expired and I don't want to do the tank recert BS right now.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:31 PM   #11
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Does anybody know if Spicer 5-1510x u joints fit the 1989 4runner rear non cv DS?
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spokerider View Post
Right on, thanks for your input. Yep, sounds like you know which end of a micrometer to hold, .

A guy over in Pirate posted this vid, showing use of a level for setting the yokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIZzXtRyrA

I have a question...... I have the DOM tube, and the yokes will be a .005" interference fit....about perfect. I need a torch to heat up the DOM before mating the yoke to tube. Will propane get this tube hot enough? Do I need Mapp? My O2 / acetylene tanks have expired and I don't want to do the tank recert BS right now.
propane will work but it will take a long time. might be better off tossing the DOM in the oven at 500* for an hour.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:06 PM   #13
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So I have the yokes off the toy tube, and I have the new .156" wall DOM tube.

The next step is to figure out the required DS lengths. The frame is built up but everything else is off, so in an attempt to replicate the weight of "everything else", so the suspension can be appropriately compressed, I have weighted the frame with steel. These 4runner DS have only 4" of spline to play with, so I have get the slip spline travel during siup. articulation right.
I have the zuk DS with spacers and extended yoke in place for measurement purposes.

Front weighted with 711 lbs, middle 518 lbs, rear 352 lbs, total; 1581 lbs.


Some notes on the slip spline travel from being level and un-weighted to weighted. Measurements are of the spline showing.

Front; 2 3/8ths un-weighted, 2" weighted, 2 3/8ths with full susp. droop.
Rear; 2" un-weighted, 1 1/8th weighted, 2 1/2" full susp. droop.

Pic of front DS spline weighted;



Pic if rear DS spline weighted;


Some notes on flange angles with frame weighted;
TC rear flange is 6 deg down. Rear pinion flange is 6 deg up. They are parallel.

The front TC flange is 5 deg up, the front pinion is 7.5 deg up. Not quite parallel.

Rear DS angle when weighted is 20 deg.
Front DS angle when weighted is 16.5 deg.
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Old 08-07-2014, 01:58 PM   #14
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I can tell you the frame itself weighs around 160-170lbs. Add the drivetrain and wheels and I think you're pretty close to typical curb weight.

0.005" is a lot of interference. A 500F temperature difference would do it but you will only get one shot at it. If you don't get it lined up right pretty quickly it will cool and you will NOT get them apart again without cutting. If it were me I would grind/sand the yoke or tube to where you can push the parts together with no interference. This way you can rotate the yoke until it lines up and then tack it. Verify alignment again and finish weld.

A shrink fit in this application only makes things more difficult.

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Old 08-07-2014, 03:55 PM   #15
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So, is your rear pinion flange parallel to the rear t-case flange?
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnus x-1 View Post
I can tell you the frame itself weighs around 160-170lbs. Add the drivetrain and wheels and I think you're pretty close to typical curb weight.

0.005" is a lot of interference. A 500F temperature difference would do it but you will only get one shot at it. If you don't get it lined up right pretty quickly it will cool and you will NOT get them apart again without cutting. If it were me I would grind/sand the yoke or tube to where you can push the parts together with no interference. This way you can rotate the yoke until it lines up and then tack it. Verify alignment again and finish weld.

A shrink fit in this application only makes things more difficult.

C|
Yes, .005" interference IS a tight fit with but 1 chance to get it right. The drive shaft shop said they go with a .005-.010" interference fit.

Well, since my torch tanks expired and are empty, I got a small MAP torch. It just barely heated up the DOM well enough. I got the one yoke in, and it is far from true. It does not move easily, even with a BFH because it is so tight when cool. I got the 2nd yoke in with the phase just 1/2 a level bubble out, and it is a bugger to try to twist now that it is cooled.

Then I looked at the other DS pieces.........and thought ....that $100 summer special the drive shaft shop had going for a DS shortening, welding and balancing looked pretty darn good considering my truing jig wasn't up to the force of wailing on it with the BFH to true the shafts and having to use the feeble torch, etc.........so I packed the works into them today. Further, there is no way I could balance the shafts on my own. In the end, they will do a better job than I for sure.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoMike View Post
So, is your rear pinion flange parallel to the rear t-case flange?
yes, when susp. compressed with weight as above. As the susp moves through its range, these angles will change a little, as expected.
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:23 AM   #18
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I think you made a good choice! If it was a green sticker trail rig like mine I'm cool with making my own driveshafts, but not on a street rig.
I'm probably like you, I like to do everything myself and make everything, but there are a few things I leave to professionals:
1. Dental work
2. Custom driveshafts
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenyus View Post
I think you made a good choice! If it was a green sticker trail rig like mine I'm cool with making my own driveshafts, but not on a street rig.
I'm probably like you, I like to do everything myself and make everything, but there are a few things I leave to professionals:
1. Dental work
2. Custom driveshafts
Yes, the map gas was $14 a bottle and I could see using up 4 bottles pretty quickly. In the end, it wasn't cost effective to finish myself.
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Old 08-09-2014, 12:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spokerider View Post
Yes, the map gas was $14 a bottle and I could see using up 4 bottles pretty quickly. In the end, it wasn't cost effective to finish myself.

Sometimes you have to learn the hard way eh?

I'm the same way. I like to do EVERYTHING myself. But sometimes it's just not worth it.

I'm baffled at why the shop said to use that much interference. Once the thing is welded together the interference fit isn't gaining you anything.

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Old 08-09-2014, 09:15 PM   #21
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They said it helps hold the yoke firm for welding......but they also have the HD lathes, presses, balancer, etc , specific to DS manufacturing.
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