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Old 03-24-2013, 12:30 PM   #1
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Samurai looking for power with low egts

I currently am running a 1.9td with k24 turbo and 1.6l boost pin. It does really well without my camper but in the prairie winds of saskatchewan it is sometimes halted to 60km/h. thats slow, I have a fella selling a mercedes om 617.952 5 cyl with 125hp and 180 torque for a reasonable price with all the fixens. Im wondering if this is too heavy for a sammy. I dont mind making any alterations to the body, but will it be waaaaay too front heavy. let me know what you think. Id really like to do it and not have to tweak the crap out of my 1.9. Im already getting high egts and if I go the next step (giles pump) ill really have to be cautious of the temp while towing through winds. Its a pretty expensive thing to do with the pump going for 1200 after shipping and the bolts going for 400 after alls said and done... so long as their arent any other problems. the mercedes would cost me around 800... saving cash and getting the same result... if... its... safe
thanks for the input
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #2
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I've got one I'm putting in my wife's jeep. They weigh about 600lbs, so a lot more than the 1.9. It's also a good bit longer than the 1.9. I'd say stay with with vw, you'd be happier in the long run. If you aren't over boosting you should be able to keep your egts prettily low. How low do you want them? If you balance more fuel with more boost evenly you shouldn't have problems with egts. I think the pump would be a good idea, that way ou get more power without having to overboost
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:47 AM   #3
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The eGTS Im running right now are running at 1250 with no exhaust at 90 km/h with a trailer. Thats balls to the walls. The trailers not heavy but it takes alot of power to pull throw the wind. Im looking into a giles pump, but Im worried that the EGTS might be through the roof if that happens. I have already installed a intercooler, so Im not too sure what else to do. Giles said it wouldnt take that much boost to get me to ther 120 hp mark, about 15- 20, and at 20 psi he said he could even bring me to the 150 hp mark, this also equates to 180 torque - 210 torque. This sounds great, but at what price. Am I going to get all this extra hp and torque and not be able to use it? I dont want to see the egts sky rocket.

I am thinking of going the route with 120 hp on the VW, do you think thatll kill the egts?

Are you going to cut into your firewalll with that 5 cylinder mercedes? I kinda thought that would be the only way to make it work if you still wanted to keep your radiator in place.

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:49 AM   #4
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by the way, I did just get back from doing a cross country trip across canada in the sammy. From BC to nova scotia and back! The prairie winds were pushing like a dog and I could only get 60 km/h out of it. You can see why Im looking for a bit more push. Third gear is a real downer when you realize you cant shift out of it. I drove like that through freezing rain and insane winds for 450km... only took 5 hours.



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Old 03-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #5
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I think that if you are balancing your boost with more fuel it shouldn't adversely affect your EGTs, might even see a decrease since you wont be having run the engine as hard and at such high rpms since you will have about 50% more power (is that an accurate estimate).

Dont need to modify the jeep at all for the 3.0 straight 5, its about 8in shorter than the stock 4.0
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:32 PM   #6
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right right, I just realized you said jeep, I always just assume sammy. Im gonna go that route with the giles pump and hope for the best. Its an expensive gamble, but from what Ive heard its quite reliable (with arp studs) and alot of fun. how do you like the jeep in comparisson to the sammys?
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:30 AM   #7
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I think that's probably a good bet, can always resell later if you switch motors.

Meh I like my wife's jeep and used to have a jeep before I saw the light. They're good for what they are but I'd take a Sammy over a jeep anyday. I have a 2.3 Peugeot turbo diesel in my tin top with Toyota running gear an dual cases and I love it, could never go back to a gas engine.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:08 PM   #8
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gassers kinda blow. I dont know if Ive asked you this before, but have you ever towed anything with the 2.3 turbo diesel at highway speeds?
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:17 PM   #9
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Lol I haven't gotten above 12mph with it and I think it's been out of 4lowlow twice since I built it. It's a trail only rig, not because I don't think it will handle the road but because of California DMV emission crap. I also have 37" tires so it might be a little too much world for the little diesel.

I can see why you have trouble towing in the wind! It's like pulling a sail with a brick haha
Have you checked your exhaust manifold pressure? You want it at 1:1 with what your boost reads. I've heard 1:2 is okay too, but the higher the EMP in relation to your boost, the higher your EGTs. That's worth checking out to see if you're running too much boost. There are quickly diminishing returns when you boost higher than the optimal fuel/air ratio and anything higher mostly just makes more heat.

How much boost are you running now? And where are you getting your EGT reading from? Before or after the turbo? If its before the turbo you could pull the pyrometer and put an air pressure or boost gauge on it to check EMP
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:07 PM   #10
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Ive never heard of checking the exhaust manifold pressure before. Ill have to check into that. I do have the EGT reading between exhaust outlets 3 and 4 a the tranny end of the engine between turbo and engine. Its a fine spot for an accurate read. I could easily remove that and install a boost reading temporarily to verify. When you say 1:2 is that 1 on the exhaust manifold with twice that number in boost? ( if Im getting a reading at 7 in the manifold its ok to crank the boost to 14?) Ive heard the opposite to that most places Ive read though. It seems everyone believes that more boost you push through an engine the more hot air it will expel thus cooling your engine. I get the balance between boost and fuel though, and Im pretty positive once I send this pump to Giles he'll give me a hint on where my boost should be. I appreciate the hint on how to test it though, that helps alot.
As of now Im running boost up to 14psi. Ive been playing around with it htough, I have a remote controller in the truck so I can turn it up or down as I drive, just to find the sweet spot.

You recommend installing the emt before or after the turbo?
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:39 AM   #11
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You will only ever achieve 1:1 with a perfect turbo, otherwise your exhaust manifold will always have more pressure.
I've always heard the opposite about over boosting. Compressing air makes heat and more pressure isn't like putting a fan over the engine, I really don't understand the argument that more boost will cool the engine but I have heard that before. The trouble with researching l line is ou never know if the person talking ha any idea what they're talking about. Talk to Giles about over boosting and see wht they say, im sure they know way more about it then I ever would. Maybe Rudolph diesel or fast spec will chime in here, they both know a lot about turbos
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:00 PM   #12
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I would start with the air intake, make sure there are no restrictions – air is your friend and you can’t run lean, you just wont make as much power. Too much fuel will drive the EGTs up really quick. 1250 sustained will not kill the turbo, but lower would be better – 1300 + will start to burn the turbine.

An EMP gauge was mentioned, I would recommend using it too. Just use a boost gauge and use a short piece of copper tube to dissipate heat and you can run poly tube from there. I would use a cheap fuel filter to catch the soot to prevent clogging the gauge. On my super-turbo (GT35 turbo & M90 supercharger) diesel Mercedes I was right around 1:1 on the exhaust vs. boost. My EGTs were around 1000 on hard runs. I had a 3” intake pipe and mandrel bent tubing. The exhaust manifold was stock, but the exhaust was 3” from the turbo back. Back pressure can cause high EGTs too.

The engine under heavy load can cause high EGTs, does down shifting lower the temp? Maybe some different gearing may be in order…

Running high boost levels seems like fun, but there is a point at which the turbo essentially becomes a heat pump and does nothing for power. I was running 30 lbs. of boost on my Mercedes, but that was within the map of the turbo. The super charger would put out 2 lbs. at idle. The end game of the high boost was the head gasket, it was fun while it lasted, albeit the motor had 300,000 miles on it when I started to hot rod it. My IP was highly modified and could put out 300% more fuel than stock.

The main thing is to keep the air and fuel balanced, the guys that are blowing black clouds are running a turbo that is not sized correctly and has to play catch up with the fuel.

I will think about this some more and see what else I can come up with.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:17 PM   #13
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thanks for chiming in, i know that you know your stuff better than i do.

on a separate note, sorry for the hijack, whatever happened to your mercedes?
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #14
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:36 AM   #15
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well, this sounds like it requires some thinking. As far as your concerned rudolf diesel, would there be any point in getting the giles pump to make my engine more capable of towing my trailer or is the 1.9 td just too small for such a tow. As I said, its not a large trailer, 1000lbs, but its no good in wind. My only concern is expecting to gain power from this pump, but once I get it running find that the EGTs are still way too high.

My set up doesnt have any restrictions in the air intake, and Ive been running the engine with no exhaust after it broke off a couple of km back. Im still getting readings of 1200-1250 degrees. I will be upgrading to 3" from my 2.5" pipe that I had before, but Im still worried itll get those EGTs high. Ive got a kkk k24 on the engine right now, and it seems to pump out some good power, but maybe the key is letting off the boost, or at least getting enough fuel via giles pump to meet the desired psi.
One quick question. It was mentioned that an engine with a high psi boost in comparrison to amount of fuel would cause high EGTs. Would it actually lower EGTs if you were to match fuel ratio with already high boost or would I just have to find that sweet spot in a lower boost to satisfy my EGT range of 1250 or lower? Basically need the power and don't know how to get it without firing EGTs sky high under load.
Hope these questions make sense and thanks for the info.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:52 AM   #16
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did you get anything sorted out yet?

to answer your last question, yes, higher boost than the optimum will increase your EGTS. do you have a manual boost controller? you could lower the boost way down sometime and try towing to see if that drops your EGTS.

with the optimal boost/fuel mixture you should be able to keep your EGTs under control, my buddy has a diesel with 650hp and 1400lbft of torque that he daily drives and his EGTS are normal.

how big is your intercooler? a bigger intercooler will mean cooler air, but it will also lower your boost pressure, but your turbo seems capable enough to make up for it.

what year is your TDI out of?
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:38 PM   #17
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Its not a TDI, its a 1.9L TD from a 96 VW jetta with a kkk turbo from the 1.6 pushing about 14psi. Im getting the giles pump to give me more push on the 2500 - 3500 rpm range in order to reach that higher max speed. Im working right now and am unable to fool around with it but Ill look into fooling around with the exhaust maifold pressure vs the boost pressure. I do have a manual boost controller that runs into the cab of my sammy. I only designed it this way to see what sort of extra power I could get with more boost vs less boost. Its interesting that most people say higher boost = lower EGTs since its forcing more cool air into the engine, where as youre saying the exact opposite. As far as the intercooler, I took one from the VW 1.9 TDI engines. Its pretty small, I would say 1' X 1'. What are most people running on the 1.9 TD engine as far as intercoolers go?
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:38 PM   #18
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more boost typically can produce lower egt's until you get out of the turbo's MAP range. I dont know much about the little VW's but on a stock 12v cummins with an hx35... you can go to about 32 psi on the stock turbo (hx35 with 12cm wastegated housing)... anything after that you are just pushing hot air and not really accomplishing anything and actually increasing exhaust gas temps. Too many guys go "oh I have xx psi... oh yea well I am pushing xx+2lbs psi... its more or less picking the right turbo, compressor wheel, exhaust housing size to get the correct AR for your goal rather than bragging about producing X amount of boost.

typically going to a larget exhaust housing will increase spool time but will flow more air = less egt's.

Another option would be some kind of water/methanol injection (usually more than people want to deal with)

not sure what the "giles pump" is but if its more fueling capability, it will possibly make your EGT's worse than they are currently.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:23 AM   #19
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Water/meth injection can lower it a couple hundred degrees a bigger interxooler cam lower it a couple hundred degrees as well. 1x1 is pretty small.

I thought that u had the 1.9 TDI this whole time.

The Giles pump will give you more fuel, yes, but the extra power will not make you push the engine as hard. For instance, my buddy lives at the end if a long hill, to maintain 35 up it his samurai would always be overheating by the top, once he did the 1.6 kick motor he could do it without pushing the engine to its limits. Those guys with 900hp tractor pull trucks aren't running much higher egts as you. More power=less strain.

Compressing air causes heat, intake air is not cold after it gets compressed by a compressor that is 1200 degrees. The people that tell you more air will cool it off like a big fan are just plain wrong and uninformed.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:24 PM   #20
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Whatever happened with this? It sounds like you're either outrunning the map on the turbo and/or need a bigger intercooler to me.
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