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Old 01-01-2011, 11:05 PM   #1
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Do I really want to go to a 1.6 16v?

I got a parts rig with the 1.6 16v in it that apparently runs well. It's a '96 Tracker 4 door 4x4 with a 3 speed auto. I'm debating putting it in my 88.5 Samurai, replacing its stock 1.3 that still runs nicely, doesn't take a measurable amount of oil and pushes the rig just fine down the highway at 65 mph. I get a solid 26 mpg and it always starts.

With the Sami I plan to do 95% on road driving usually at 65 mph and the remaining 5% will be logging road exploration in British Columbia. Generally not much mud, be some very steep roads and rough terrain. I'm not a mud guy.

I plan to run YJ springs spring under and use a 1" body lift to get the last bit needed to clear 31" tires SPUA and give the 16v (if I choose to do so) the room it needs. I'm planning on using an early model Samurai transmission coupled with 6.4:1 transfer case gears and stock differential gears to put the engine right at the RPM range on the highway that it had from the factory.

Three main issues concern me with the 16v swap.

1) Difficulty
2) Cost
3) Reliability and ease of repair

The Trail Tough engine conversion kit looks to make most things fairly simple. Are there any items that need to be fabricated using the kit? I have seen a couple write ups where things like the windshield spray container was moved, jack mounting bracket removed, etc. Are there new brackets included for things like this? If not it would be easy enough to make. Is there a mounting bracket for the fuel pump included? Is the cost of the VSS installation in my instrument cluster included in the kit price? What about the harness modification? Who pays shipping for these items, is that included? I would hope so as $600 is a lot of money! Myron said in another thread that he can modify them for a bit less and it sounded like he would leave the test jumpers (I think), which Trail Tough did not do. Do most people use the 1.6 radiator with the electric fan? I know some use the 1.3 radiator and don't experience overheating. Are brackets and hoses included? I wish Trail Tough would have a bigger picture on their site! Does the Samurai harness need to get sent out for modifications also? Is an engine hoist really needed for this? What is the weight of a 1.3 or 1.6?

I'm also concerned about the cost of everything. If it's just the $600 for the kit, that's not terrible, but there has to be hidden costs. What else would there be?

I remember having the mentality my entire life up until a year or two ago that a carbureted engine would be much easier to troubleshoot in the middle of nowhere than a fuel injected engine. I still side with that a bit, but it seems that a well maintained EFI system should be reliable also and some trouble shooting could be done. What are people's opinions on this? What are common failures in an EFI system like that of the 16v? If you were taking a trip 1600 miles from home and 75 miles up a logging road, what would you bring for replacement parts? Ignition coil, main relay, fuses, spark plug wire, injector? Would it be worth it to bring a code reader? I don't know a ton about EFI systems, but the system should say what isn't reading correctly, so that part would be suspect, which should then be replaced I assume.

I'm also kind of curious how the 16v 1.6 does at low RPMs. I read a post that said they stall quite a bit easier than a 1.3 would, so it would take some getting used to while crawling. Is there any truth to that? Have any of you 16v guys been keeping track of your mpg numbers? What would you estimate your top speed to be?

Any other advice or things I should be aware of? I'm kind of torn between going through all this work or just getting a my-side or putting on a Toyota or similar carb.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:19 PM   #2
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get a myside until you are really forced to make the decision.that 1.6 doesnt take up much room and you can sell the myside then to help with the costs.

i could debate either way as my offroad rig has the 16 valve with an auto and my wifes rig i am building has a built new 1.3 going into it and i have the stuff to have done any of the motors basically.

either one is win,win.its up to you and if you want to spend the money and do the work.i really prefer to go 16 valve when your 1.3 takes a dump and rebuild cost is in the money factor of an engine swap.

it does sound as a carb swap would make you happy and just take an afternoons worth of work along with a fraction of the cost.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:31 PM   #3
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i will be honest with u, this is a long post for just a few question keep it simple is the easyer way to get awnser

total cost of my swap was

300 for the motor
300 for the wiring
50$ for a vw fox fuel pump

and i love it, never going back to a 1.3 ever EVER!!!


u can do your own kit, actualy u dont need a kit to do the swap...
u just cut and relocate passenger engine mount
drill 2 holes in the 1.6 to fit the 1.3 tranny
use big zip-tie to mount the fuel pump


1.6 is better on all points over the 1.3

efi is better on all points over carburated...

if u go with TT kit u will need to fabricate few things anyway... nothing is really bolt on..... nothing
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson View Post
get a myside until you are really forced to make the decision.that 1.6 doesnt take up much room and you can sell the myside then to help with the costs.

i could debate either way as my offroad rig has the 16 valve with an auto and my wifes rig i am building has a built new 1.3 going into it and i have the stuff to have done any of the motors basically.

either one is win,win.its up to you and if you want to spend the money and do the work.i really prefer to go 16 valve when your 1.3 takes a dump and rebuild cost is in the money factor of an engine swap.

it does sound as a carb swap would make you happy and just take an afternoons worth of work along with a fraction of the cost.
The drawbacks are still there for a carb though. It's not as efficient and won't perform as well at angles or at -40*F or 10,000 ft.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:33 PM   #5
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Seb, how did the wiring cost you $300? Did you have to pay that much from a junkyard? And did you modify it yourself?
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:36 PM   #6
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the harness came with the motor, paid a buddy to modify it and install it in my truck

iv swaped the motor and gave it to my buddy 1 weekend

300$ he modify the harness and install it and did some road test to make sure it run good
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:36 PM   #7
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forgot to say, TT kit will make u pay the shipping for the harness
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:17 AM   #8
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Ok i will answer some of your questions as you have lots and some i dont know or have figured out yet.

I put the myside on my 1.3 and loved it. I have had it running on its side upside down on its ass end and it kept purring. Never had a problem of it running rough at high altitudes but i have never seen 10,000 feet in my sammi.

When i went with the 1.6 after i blew up my 1.3, I went with the trail tough kit. Its a easy bolt on but you have to raise your hood a inch or do a inch body lift.
But your already doing a 1 inch body lift so it wouldn't matter anyways.


Trail tough wanted 300 to modify my harness and a aditional 50 to install the vss. they wouldn't work with me on giving back my sidekick gauge cluster or anything so i frowned upon them and went somewhere else.

I went with zor or myron depends on how you know him. myron wanted 150 with the vss included and i paid shipping to him and i got it back. I don't remember if i paid return shipping but it wasn't a big deal if i did or not.

You could always buy the tranny mount and do zors engine mounts so you don't have to mess with your hood at all.

I used the stock radiator and fan shroud from my 1.3 have not had any issues with it getting hot or anything.

The harness was so simple to install i had it in and going in just a couple hours. Have not had any problems with it yet.

Really a 1.6 running awesome should not give you any problems with speed and reliability. well a ood running 1.3 like you say you have wouldn't eather.

If it were me i would run your 1.3 and rebuild the 1.6 so when you put it in it's brand new and not hoping it runs good when you get it running.

My 1.6 runs awesome never stalled it out at low rpms or lugging it around on the rocks.
can't really tell you how good of gas mileage i'm getting but it's way better then what my 1.3 was getting on a good day.

Really it's up to you on what your going to do and people can only give you advice and there personnal opinion.

Hope i have helped you out on some of your questions. I will answer more if you have any.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:17 AM   #9
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You dont have to fab anything with TT's bolt on kit....


I say just go 1.6 8v and use your same carb and headers. If u get tired of the carb get a new 16v head and go fuel injection
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:35 AM   #10
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The 1.6 16v lugs much better than the 1.3 which lugs pretty good too.

I like my 1.6 because I can keep up with traffic. Snow bashing is nice to have a little more power but it's not near enough, 400 hp would be better . Slogging up a 60mph hill here in Colorado at 40mph in 3rd got tiring with 15 people behind me.

If your in ND and no traffic, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle unless you just want to do it. 1.6 16V is still a slow vehicle IMHO, I doubt you could beat any new car made with it.

The 31's and a lift will slow you down. Geckocycles here has a GXSR kit on his tired 1.3 and except for the steepest hills I don't have anything on him. He kept his sammy low and uses narrow 33" tires. I think the aerodynamics of low and thin tires helps alot.

Last edited by flashboiler; 01-02-2011 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:05 PM   #11
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I just read your post and the replies and a couple of things came to mind:

1. The trans is most likely a 4 speed, not a 3 speed. 4 Speed has an OD button on shifter and a P/N switch.
2. The vehicle is OBD2 which make the swap more involved and I doubt the TT $250-$300 price is applicable due to the additional complexity.
3. You will have mod in a 1.3 oil pan with the SPUA setup.

Plenty have put in the OBD2 motors but it's not a bolt in by any means. I just stuck a 95 16V/4 speed auto in my Sammi and it was a lot of work but it's pretty cool so far with plenty more power than the 1.3. I just drove it for the first time a few days ago and still have some minor bugs. Anyway, with the OBD1 motor and the auto, the Sammi was down 6 weeks. The 1.6 probably took 2 weeks of that and there were lots of little expenses and a few big ones.

Fuel pump - $100
Header - $270 (My manifold(s) and all others at the local yards were cracked)
...

Good luck on your decision.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stafford01 View Post
I put the myside on my 1.3 and loved it. I have had it running on its side upside down on its ass end and it kept purring. Never had a problem of it running rough at high altitudes but i have never seen 10,000 feet in my sammi.

It looks like your rig is off road only, so you probably wouldn't have the same demand for power that I would. If I didn't daily drive my Zuk, I would probably do the myside.

Trail tough wanted 300 to modify my harness and a aditional 50 to install the vss. they wouldn't work with me on giving back my sidekick gauge cluster or anything so i frowned upon them and went somewhere else.

That's not very cool.. Did you have an OBDII harness?

I went with zor or myron depends on how you know him. myron wanted 150 with the vss included and i paid shipping to him and i got it back. I don't remember if i paid return shipping but it wasn't a big deal if i did or not.

That sounds much better. I plan on giving him a call about the harness when my schedule smooths out a bit.

You could always buy the tranny mount and do zors engine mounts so you don't have to mess with your hood at all.

Sounds like the best bet to me.

I used the stock radiator and fan shroud from my 1.3 have not had any issues with it getting hot or anything.

Does the 1.6 radiator not fit? I'd be a lot more comfortable with the bigger radiator. Last summer I watched my temp gauge climb to about 2/3 of the way up pushing it hard up mountains both on the highway and on logging roads. It didn't climb above that, and it would cool back down idling. IMHO it just doesn't seem sufficient to me.

The harness was so simple to install i had it in and going in just a couple hours. Have not had any problems with it yet.

Awesome. The hooking up of the harness was really scaring me. The point to it is to make it all plug and play with no guess work right? Can't be that bad.

If it were me i would run your 1.3 and rebuild the 1.6 so when you put it in it's brand new and not hoping it runs good when you get it running.

From what I gather the engine is still in the Tracker waiting for me to pick it up. The guy I'm getting it from had it running fine he said. I'll start it up, do a compression check, and check for codes. Anything else worth doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc017 View Post
You dont have to fab anything with TT's bolt on kit....


I say just go 1.6 8v and use your same carb and headers. If u get tired of the carb get a new 16v head and go fuel injection
It would be tempting, but I don't have an 8v, and do have a 16v. I'm also still using the stock carb and don't have headers. With the cost of performance parts I could nearly have the 16v swapped in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flashboiler View Post
The 1.6 16v lugs much better than the 1.3 which lugs pretty good too.

Perfect. BTW, I've had my 1.3 down to 200 RPM .

I like my 1.6 because I can keep up with traffic. Snow bashing is nice to have a little more power but it's not near enough, 400 hp would be better . Slogging up a 60mph hill here in Colorado at 40mph in 3rd got tiring with 15 people behind me.

98 hp will for sure be enough to me. I've always driven slow vehicles and it doesn't bother me. I drive like a grandpa most of the time.

If your in ND and no traffic, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle unless you just want to do it. 1.6 16V is still a slow vehicle IMHO, I doubt you could beat any new car made with it.

Doesn't matter to me in the least. As long as I can keep up with traffic..

The 31's and a lift will slow you down. Geckocycles here has a GXSR kit on his tired 1.3 and except for the steepest hills I don't have anything on him. He kept his sammy low and uses narrow 33" tires. I think the aerodynamics of low and thin tires helps alot.

I plan on gearing it to the stock RPM so I doubt it would have a huge affect on speed and acceleration. If I go from 100 mph to 90 mph for a top speed that's fine with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit View Post
I just read your post and the replies and a couple of things came to mind:

1. The trans is most likely a 4 speed, not a 3 speed. 4 Speed has an OD button on shifter and a P/N switch.

The guy I'm getting it from said it was a 3 speed. I was surprised and asked him if it wasn't the 4 speed and he said not again. I suppose he just could have overlooked the button on the shifter, he only drove it a couple blocks from what he said.

2. The vehicle is OBD2 which make the swap more involved and I doubt the TT $250-$300 price is applicable due to the additional complexity.

I'll check with TT for the kit and Myron for the harness and report back. Probably won't be for at least a week though.

3. You will have mod in a 1.3 oil pan with the SPUA setup.

I thought there needed to be only another 1 or 2 inches of clearance between the oil pan and the axle to use the 16v stock oilpan? I am planning to go spring under YJs, so 2" of lift.
.......
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:43 PM   #13
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Have you read this yet? It will give you an idea of the process and Sean even uses an OBD2 motor and his own motor mounts for hood clearance. Petroworks makes some mounts that drop the motor and Brent at TT has his own ideas on how to make it fit.

http://members.cox.net/aftermarket4x4/sleeper.html
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:49 PM   #14
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Yep, I read all of it 2 weeks ago. Great write up. I want to stick with the TT mounts though.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:35 AM   #15
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Just for the record.....a 3 speed was never offered in a 4 door, from the factory (well, other than the 91 4 doors, but they all had 8V engines, not 16V). So either the guy doesn't know what he is talking about (most likely), or someone swapped in a 3 speed (not likely).
Are you planning on using the auto tranny, or just keeping the samurai tranny? If you go with the auto, you will have more wiring to deal with, since the 4 speed is computer controlled. Plus, if it is a 2wd, it will be too long to use and be able to keep your samurai tcase in the stock location (the 4 speed is about 3" longer than a trackick 3 speed auto or 5 speed manual). If it is a 4x4, then you can remove the tcase and be ok.
As far as swapping in the 1.6.....
fuel injection is nice. It automatically compensates for altitude changes, it will run fine at any angle, it automatically optimizes itself to give you the proper mixture for power, MPG, etc, the engine will start easier in any type of weather.
it is much easier to troubleshoot than a carb, IMO. The CEL will usually tell you where the problem is.
The extra 30 HP would be nice.
It will cost you some time and $$ to swap it in. So if that is ok, then do it.
You should still be able to get upper 20s for MPG....providing you can "keep your foot out of it".
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:25 PM   #16
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You're right, it probably is a 4 speed then, and it is a 4x4. I plan on using the Samurai 5 speed though anyway. I get 26 mpg now, so I hope it gets at least that, even on 31s. I'm tempted to just keep the Tracker as a winter rig and keep it stock. It seems complete, except for the rear driveshaft, which I think was removed for flat towing.. it might be in the back of the vehicle, I just didn't see it. The downside to it is that it has quite a bit of rust on the rocker panels and some on the fenders. The interior is in good shape.

I could then put a Toyota carb on the Samurai's 1.3 and perhaps a header down the road.

Oh decisions..
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:56 PM   #17
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I hope they didn't remove the rear driveshaft for flat towing. It uses a slip yoke on the tcase end, so the gear oil would have ran out the back of the tcase.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:24 PM   #18
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Hmm.. well I'll have to check that. It wasn't driven after being towed, so it shouldn't have caused damage.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:43 PM   #19
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I have a 16v sitting on an engine stand in my garage. I had almost talked myself out of installing it because my FI 1.3 runs so well. That is until my Mom bought a 96 tracker with the 16v 5 spd. Holy crap what a difference. If you are happy with the 1.3 then run the piss out of it. Just don't ever ride with someone with a 16v.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:08 PM   #20
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I bet it's a blast to drive in comparison. And a Samurai must be quite a bit lighter than a Tracker too.

I think the best thing for me to do at this point is to check out the condition of the Tracker and see if it's salvageable for a winter daily driver or if it's just a parts rig. I honestly didn't look all that close at the Tracker I got because it was free. I hope to have it home within the week, so I'll take some pictures and upload them. If the engine is still hooked up I may try to fire it up and take a video too.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:06 PM   #21
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Well.. checking out the Tracker in good light I realized that it's beyond any repair that I'm willing to do. It's very rusty in many places, I'm surprised the front and rear tow hooks didn't break off. The front was rusted especially bad and bent during the process of getting it on the trailer. The engine itself is intact, but the radiator and hoses have came off. So I'm definitely no longer thinking about making it drivable.

I'm still pretty leery of swapping in a fuel injected engine after seeing so many threads of 16v's that aren't running right due to sensor troubles. I need something that's easy to work on!

It got me thinking though.. I don't think I've heard of it being done, but is there any way to use a 1.6 8v head on a 1.6 16v block? I'm really liking the idea of a MySide or something similar with a 16v block.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by daverbmxer View Post
Well.. checking out the Tracker in good light I realized that it's beyond any repair that I'm willing to do. It's very rusty in many places, I'm surprised the front and rear tow hooks didn't break off. The front was rusted especially bad and bent during the process of getting it on the trailer. The engine itself is intact, but the radiator and hoses have came off. So I'm definitely no longer thinking about making it drivable.

I'm still pretty leery of swapping in a fuel injected engine after seeing so many threads of 16v's that aren't running right due to sensor troubles. I need something that's easy to work on!

It got me thinking though.. I don't think I've heard of it being done, but is there any way to use a 1.6 8v head on a 1.6 16v block? I'm really liking the idea of a MySide or something similar with a 16v block.
Don't let the apparent number of bad running 16Vs scare you away. Look at the number of threads of people with carbed samurais that don't run well. Plus, EFI engines will tell you where the problem more than likely is.....with carbed samurais, you just start checking things that may cause whatever symptom it has.
I would take EFI over carbed any day.
16Vs and 8Vs use the same block (different pistons though...since the 8V only has 2 valves per cylinder and the 16V uses 4....so the cutouts in the pistons are different).
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:10 PM   #23
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That's true, but there are still many things that can fail that won't throw a code. With so many sensors, solenoids, relays, computer, etc. that can fail it concerns me. As I believe I said earlier, I'd like to be able to fix anything other than an internal engine failure with basic tools if need be. I go to some pretty remote areas in the summer and don't want to be stuck! With the exception of a diesel, it doesn't get much more simple than a MySide.

So doing what I said before, if I used 8v 1.6 pistons that have cutouts for only 2 valves I could use a MySide and a 8v 1.6 head?

There would be no way to use the 16v 1.6 head with a carburetor right?
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:13 PM   #24
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So doing what I said before, if I used 8v 1.6 pistons that have cutouts for only 2 valves I could use a MySide and a 8v 1.6 head?
Yes.

There would be no way to use the 16v 1.6 head with a carburetor right?
I suppose there probably is a way, but I don't know how to do it.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:15 PM   #25
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Seems like it might work.. leave the injectors in and hook a carburetor up where the throttle body was. If it can be done that would be ideal. Thanks for bearing with my questions skyhi.
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