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TRASHCAN
02-09-2006, 06:44 PM
lookin for help installing an axle wrap bar on my rearend before the first weekend in march. free tee shirts (Cabelas) for those that help me fix this last prob before the run in Gilmer!! I need a welder (mine no worky) and a torch or plasma torch would be helpfull, experiance fixing this prob would be great, another mind and pair of hands is also welcome, advice is always wanted!! advice with a pic or phone call is Awsome.

thanks any and all who help

Mike

Itsmejoe231
02-09-2006, 07:16 PM
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1160.sized.jpg

http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1162.sized.jpg

Now gimmy a shirt:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

TRASHCAN
02-09-2006, 07:18 PM
lol, why the shackle? doesnt it allow movement still?

Mike

shirt waiting for you at gilmer

zukking01
02-09-2006, 07:31 PM
The shackle is so the axle can travel up and down. The axle cannot wrap nearly as easy as before. It is a vast inprovement while keeping your flex. Now give him a shirt.

TRASHCAN
02-09-2006, 07:41 PM
I dont know about that whole shackle thing, my axle wraps pretty bad. im on my third driveshaft.

shirt will be at gilmer.....your still going right?

Mike

Itsmejoe231
02-09-2006, 08:02 PM
I went off this design. I dont know where I got it but who ever did the drawing they get the kudo's. I did a few things different as you can see.
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/Picture_4.jpg


What I did was make sure that the bottom of the track bar was parallel with the drive shaft and the shackle was same angle as the leaf spring shackle. The shackle is required for the movement the axle goes through during flex. It is either a shackle or some type of extendable bar to make it work properly. That is why there is a slip yolk on your d-shaft to be able to adjust as needed during flex.

DesertZuki
02-10-2006, 01:17 AM
Well, I'm not the brightest guy you'll ever meet and, as evidence, I'm hoping you can explain to me -in the simplest of terms- how a shackle in that configuration allows the rear-end to move up and down and even rotate for flex..

As I look at your set-up, I can see it allowing up movement only if it moves the rear end backwards, as the rear end follows the movement of the shackle. And as I look at the diagram, I can only see it allowing down movement only if it moves the rear end backwards, once again following the arc of the shackle.

???

Billjohn
02-10-2006, 10:08 AM
The springs need to flex when they articulate. This changes the straight line length from spring eye to spring pad. Not much, but enough to bind during articulation if you don't have some way for the axle to shift forward a little. This is done with the shackle or slip yoke. It still doesn't allow the traction bar to rotate (so no springwrap) but using poly bushings in a shackle setup will allow a little give so you don't slap your gears into submission.
That help any?

Bull
02-10-2006, 10:11 AM
I don't have any pics of mine, but I made a traction bar similar to this, but I used 1.25" .120 wall tubing with weld in tube nuts and 3/4" heim joints on each end. It's 20.5" long and the heim joints have 1.75" of adjustment in or out. I made weld on brackets for each end from 3/8" 2x4 angle. Haven't put it on yet, but it is beefy and should work well, you just reminded me to install it.
58

59

DesertZuki
02-10-2006, 12:25 PM
The springs need to flex...
Ok, that justifies the existence of the shackle and that makes sense. Thank you!

I guess what I don't understand is how a shackle that is straight up and down, but is attached a bar that doesn't flex, rotate or allow movement; how that allows the axle to move up and down and even sideways.. It seems to me when the rear end drooped or stuffed, it would have to alter the pinion angle (not a bad thing) but wouldn't that movement create a bind at the springs that would in turn reduce the articulation? Does what I'm asking make sense?

Billjohn
02-10-2006, 02:14 PM
I guess what I don't understand is how a shackle that is straight up and down, but is attached a bar that doesn't flex, rotate or allow movement; how that allows the axle to move up and down and even sideways..

Up, down, forward and back are the only directions the bar will be able to move freely, due to the nature of a shackle. The tracbar's main function is to keep the axle housing from rotating on the axle shafts (pivoting up or down and causing axle wrap). The bushings in the shackle will allow for some sideways movement or twisting that happens during articulation.

A single mount point tracbar (like the one pictured above, or the Spidertrax tracbar) will also work because of the nature of its mounts. But the triangulated tracbar needs the shackle.

It seems to me when the rear end drooped or stuffed, it would have to alter the pinion angle (not a bad thing) but wouldn't that movement create a bind at the springs that would in turn reduce the articulation? Does what I'm asking make sense?

I think I know where your going with this, but remember that the driveshaft (attached to the pinion) is rotating on a U-joint and has a splined slipjoint to keep it from binding. The only real hurdle for a tracbar is to keep the bar from fighting the spring, and the shackle does that.

Itsmejoe231
02-10-2006, 05:42 PM
I think I know what you are asking and I know where you a comming from cause I have the same thoughts as well until I started building it. I think Bill did a good job of explaining where I would have problems explaining getting through the technical stuff. Thanks Bill!!

The shackle on my set up has plenty of "flex" for when the axle goes through articulation. Notice that the shackles are not tied together like a regular shackle is with metal welded between them. This gives it more room to be able to twist durring articulation. There are rubber bushings in there to alow more flex at the shackle as well. I have missing links on the rear of my Zuke and this track bar does not limit it in any way. I hope this helps along with what Bill has explained as well.

DesertZuki
02-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Thanks guys, it all helps. I don't have one of those spacially oriented minds -- I can't easily picture technical things in my head unless I'm already familiar with them.

This is what I was thinking when I was asking the last question (start at #1):
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e227/wbtowery/AntiWrapBar4.jpg
So I was thinking the rotational force on the housing would just tear it apart or simply limit articulation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

What trying to understand all this, I finally realized this:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e227/wbtowery/AntiWrapBar2.jpg
That is, the axle doesn't travel straight up and down, but in an arc with the spring shackles in the back.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I always understood this:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e227/wbtowery/AntiWrapBar1.jpg



Hey, and it only took me two freakin' hours to figure this out, to get the drawings done, to figure out where and how to host the pics and that the forum doesn't like .bmp files and finally, how to convert .bmp into jpeg.

WHEW!!!

How'd I do?

Billjohn
02-11-2006, 12:05 AM
You passed. {grin}

Itsmejoe231
02-11-2006, 12:08 AM
Now you are cooking with grease. You got it right. The axle travels in an arch. bigok

Now make a picture from the end with the axle articulated and the shackle flexed (twisted) in the bushings. My rear axle will probably not go more that 30* from parellel one way or another so that means I need atleast 15* side ways flex in each bushing. If there were anymore flex I would have to go to some type of swivel joint at the end of the bar connecting to the shackle.

DesertZuki
02-11-2006, 03:34 PM
Cool!

Thanks guys!

I thinks I gots it.

Droopypete
02-11-2006, 06:27 PM
I don't have any pics of mine, but I made a traction bar similar to this, but I used 1.25" .120 wall tubing with weld in tube nuts and 3/4" heim joints on each end. It's 20.5" long and the heim joints have 1.75" of adjustment in or out. I made weld on brackets for each end from 3/8" 2x4 angle. Haven't put it on yet, but it is beefy and should work well, you just reminded me to install it.
58

59
Bull if you havent allready started on this path, don't, it is a waste of time, after stuffing too many sets of rear springs, I made one just as you discribe, thinking "it has to be better" well if it is, it is not by much.
This design still lets the pinion drop or rise (depending on forward or reverse gear), and it is this action that bends springs like pretzles and blows unis.

The design that Joe put up (which won him a T shirt :mrgreen: ) is way better but it also has draw backs, this set up produces anti squat, which is not desirable for climbing, have a look here and a good read (there is some great tech)

http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/

Another alternative to the shackle on Joes set up is to replace the shackle with an eye on the end of a straight piece of rod say 12 inches long, 8 inches of the rod are slid snugly inside the round top bar of the anti wrap frame, seal it up with a shock boot and add a grease nipple, it will then rotate without restriction.

Peter.
PS having said all of that I have a shackle on mine (another quick fix:oops: )

muskyslayr
02-11-2006, 08:33 PM
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1160.sized.jpg

http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1162.sized.jpg

Now gimmy a shirt:mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Awright, went winter wheelin today, let me ask you this...when I get that chug chug thing going through the deep snow is that spring wrap? If so I'm building one of these!!

DesertZuki
02-11-2006, 09:27 PM
...blows unis...
???

DesertZuki
02-11-2006, 10:28 PM
Another alternative to the shackle on Joes set up is to replace the shackle with an eye on the end of a straight piece of rod say 12 inches long, 8 inches of the rod are slid snugly inside the round top bar of the anti wrap frame, seal it up with a shock boot and add a grease nipple, it will then rotate without restriction.
So one piece of tubing slipping inside another piece of tubing?

TRASHCAN
02-12-2006, 12:09 AM
spankn so whats wrong with this setup again? this is what I had in mind

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/37_1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/0d_1.jpg

because it wownt slip out or move forward or backward? so when you are at full droop it pulls the front of the 3rd down and when at full stuff it pushes the 3rd back? is that it? I think im following but not sure. If I use the same bar without fixing it to a stationary bracket welded to the frame, but instead use a shackle so it will allow flex or stuff I should be fine right?

but if its on a shackle wownt it just pull or push the shackle and still wrap? what Im asking is if I dont stop the wraping what have I accomplished?:confused:

Mike

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 12:52 AM
???
Anyone who is running Suzuki diffs and Suzuki tailshafts in a spring over configeration with no anti wrap system (or the crap rod off the top of the diff housing) will max out the travel in their uni's you can take to them with a grinder to get a bit more clearance but under hard exceleration the uni's will pack it in.
A triangulated anti wrap system like Joe posted will stop the pinion reacting violently to hard exceleration and thereby saving your uni's, but the triangulated system is far from perfect.
Peter.

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 12:55 AM
So one piece of tubing slipping inside another piece of tubing?
That is almost correct, I would prefer to use a piece of solid rod inside a tube, refer to the 3rd pic you posted and note the direction of force at the shackel end,
Peter.

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 01:04 AM
spankn so whats wrong with this setup again? this is what I had in mind

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/37_1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/0d_1.jpg

because it wownt slip out or move forward or backward? so when you are at full droop it pulls the front of the 3rd down and when at full stuff it pushes the 3rd back? is that it? I think im following but not sure. If I use the same bar without fixing it to a stationary bracket welded to the frame, but instead use a shackle so it will allow flex or stuff I should be fine right?

but if its on a shackle wownt it just pull or push the shackle and still wrap? what Im asking is if I dont stop the wraping what have I accomplished?:confused:

Mike

The main problem is that is still lets the diff rotate under exceleration and the top bar only surves as a pivot to twist your springs like pretzles.
Peter.

muskyslayr
02-12-2006, 10:18 AM
I went off this design. I dont know where I got it but who ever did the drawing they get the kudo's. I did a few things different as you can see.
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/Picture_4.jpg


What I did was make sure that the bottom of the track bar was parallel with the drive shaft and the shackle was same angle as the leaf spring shackle. The shackle is required for the movement the axle goes through during flex. It is either a shackle or some type of extendable bar to make it work properly. That is why there is a slip yolk on your d-shaft to be able to adjust as needed during flex.

Okay, I really like this design. The question I have for you Joe is, I noticed in the picture of the actual traction bar your shackle is hanging down, the picture in your drawing the shackle is up. With the shackle hanging down couldn't you theoretically flex the shackle enough so that it could cam over to the top side? I mean, when you're on the skinny pedal the force on the end of your bar would be up right? So if you're flexed out so the shackle is leaning toward the rear and then gassed it so there was force in the upward direction couldn't it go past center and flip up? Where as, if the shackle was already in the up position even if the shackle was flexed out toward the rear, the upword force would only make it go back up. I guess if you were in reverse the other scenerio would hold true...hmmm Am I just being anal about it or does it make any sense?

Itsmejoe231
02-12-2006, 10:57 AM
You got a good question. I dont think that my axle will move back more than 1" durrung acceleration and that is not enough to let the shackle rotate around. I have used this bar without any maintenance at all for about 8 months now. I am still on the same drive shaft, I am running 4.38:1 R&P's with the TT 6.4:1 T-case. My springs are still in good shape.

I think that I accomplished what I set out to do.

muskyslayr
02-12-2006, 11:07 AM
Well like I said, I really like the design and I'm probably going to come up with something really close. Next question if you don't mind me picking your brain...ha ha It says to have the shackle at the same angle as the spring shackle, does that need to be in the opposite direction? I.E. if my spring shackle is sitting thusly \ does my traction bar shackle need to be like this /? And does it need to be the same length as the spring shackle?

Itsmejoe231
02-12-2006, 11:10 AM
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/

Another alternative to the shackle on Joes set up is to replace the shackle with an eye on the end of a straight piece of rod say 12 inches long, 8 inches of the rod are slid snugly inside the round top bar of the anti wrap frame, seal it up with a shock boot and add a grease nipple, it will then rotate without restriction.

Peter.
PS having said all of that I have a shackle on mine (another quick fix:oops: )

I like this design but it dont look any different than this one.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/37_1.jpg

This design will let the axle articulate, and keep the pinion at a constant angle throughout flex.

http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/images/20030119171608_new3.jpg

This one is the same thing but with many manhours and more expensive parts than just a $20 tactor supply bar.

Never the less all these designs will work but who is to say this one is better than another. I am sure there are different applications for each rig. I dont think a Samurai will have enough room to put all that on the top of the pumkin without fear of hitting a big bump and that gizmo goes shooting through the bed.

Itsmejoe231
02-12-2006, 11:16 AM
Well like I said, I really like the design and I'm probably going to come up with something really close. Next question if you don't mind me picking your brain...ha ha It says to have the shackle at the same angle as the spring shackle, does that need to be in the opposite direction? I.E. if my spring shackle is sitting thusly \ does my traction bar shackle need to be like this /? And does it need to be the same length as the spring shackle?

they need to be as close to the same angle as possible. If not it will be fighting each other when you hit bumps

Kinda like a panhard bar needs to be paralell with the drag link. Make your shackles paralell with each other.

DesertZuki
02-12-2006, 03:05 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/mrtrashcan/37_1.jpg

This design will let the axle articulate, and keep the pinion at a constant angle throughout flex.

Droopy, if I follow; you're saying this won't prevent spring wrap because it allows the diff to pivot around where the bar is attached to the top of the diff?... So, this bar would prevent the top of the diff from moving backward (under forward acceleration) but that the diff/axle housing would pivot at the bottom (forward rotation)? Is that what you mean?

Wouldn't the front half of the leaf spring in combination with that bar almost totally prevent that rotation? Wouldn't the bar at the top and the front half of the leaf spring at the bottom basically triangulate the housing? Wouldn't that triangulation almost completely eliminate the wrap? The wrap comes from the pinion moving up (forward acceleration) and the hop comes from the spring unloading (because the pinion moving up bent the spring into an "S"), right? So if the pinion is prevented from moving up (which the bar does, right?) where's the wrap and hop come from -- the front half of the leaf?

I guess I could see the possibility of a very small amount of wrap/hop, (because part of the triangulation involves a spring) but I would think it would be a very small fraction of what existed before. Is that what you mean?

DesertZuki
02-12-2006, 03:19 PM
Anyone who is running Suzuki diffs and Suzuki tailshafts in a spring over configeration with no anti wrap system (or the crap rod off the top of the diff housing) will max out the travel in their uni's you can take to them with a grinder to get a bit more clearance but under hard exceleration the uni's will pack it in...
Ooooooooooooookay.. I just figured out you were talking about universal joints. For "unis," I read "you-niss." I didn't know what you were talking about. Although, while I don't wheel as hard as some do, I've been spring-over w/o an anti-wrap bar for about three years and haven't had a u-joint problem yet. But I have a neighbor who has had multiple u-joint problems with his stock sammy which he mostly drives back and forth to work. He had maintenance issues, and not with the u-joints.

muskyslayr
02-12-2006, 04:32 PM
Droopy, if I follow; you're saying this won't prevent spring wrap because it allows the diff to pivot around where the bar is attached to the top of the diff?... So, this bar would prevent the top of the diff from moving backward (under forward acceleration) but that the diff/axle housing would pivot at the bottom (forward rotation)? Is that what you mean?

Wouldn't the front half of the leaf spring in combination with that bar almost totally prevent that rotation? Wouldn't the bar at the top and the front half of the leaf spring at the bottom basically triangulate the housing? Wouldn't that triangulation almost completely eliminate the wrap? The wrap comes from the pinion moving up (forward acceleration) and the hop comes from the spring unloading (because the pinion moving up bent the spring into an "S"), right? So if the pinion is prevented from moving up (which the bar does, right?) where's the wrap and hop come from -- the front half of the leaf?

I guess I could see the possibility of a very small amount of wrap/hop, (because part of the triangulation involves a spring) but I would think it would be a very small fraction of what existed before. Is that what you mean?

I can see where this one would prevent spring wrap and wheel hop but what bothers me about this design is the fact that the bar has no way of growing longer like your driveshaft. So...when your suspension is flexed out isn't this going to actually cause your pinion to pivot down puting even more strain on your unis?

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 04:37 PM
Droopy, if I follow; you're saying this won't prevent spring wrap because it allows the diff to pivot around where the bar is attached to the top of the diff?...


That is exactly what I am saying




So, this bar would prevent the top of the diff from moving backward (under forward acceleration) but that the diff/axle housing would pivot at the bottom (forward rotation)? Is that what you mean?

Yes

Wouldn't the front half of the leaf spring in combination with that bar almost totally prevent that rotation?

No

Wouldn't the bar at the top and the front half of the leaf spring at the bottom basically triangulate the housing?

No

Wouldn't that triangulation almost completely eliminate the wrap?

No

The wrap comes from the pinion moving up (forward acceleration) and the hop comes from the spring unloading (because the pinion moving up bent the spring into an "S"), right?

Correct

So if the pinion is prevented from moving up (which the bar does, right?)

wrong

where's the wrap and hop come from -- the front half of the leaf?

front an back of the spring

I guess I could see the possibility of a very small amount of wrap/hop, (because part of the triangulation involves a spring) but I would think it would be a very small fraction of what existed before. Is that what you mean?

If the spring were replaced with control arms it would be OK (inturms of wrap)
but spings are made to flex and flex they do, I run a 1.6 with 6:1 transfer and 5.125:1 diff gears with duel air lockers into 34" tyres a setup I have run for many years, this combination produces heaps of touque at the axles and the first anti wrap bar I had was a 1 peice bar at the top of the diff like the one in the pic, and for light excelleration it was ok but if you put the boot into it it would shag the springs in no time, they would look like w's and it would spit universal joints, that fact alone tells you how much pinion movement that style of bar permits, standing static on level ground the uni's had heaps of clearance, but they would always be buggered from maxing out their range of motion, the pinion was flopping around like a banana under exceleration.

I now have a triangulated anti wrap bar (like Joes, with a shackle at the top)
and it is heaps better than the old one peice waste of time bar, but it is not perfect, it produces anti squat, basicly when you excelerate the back of the car lifts up, when climbing up a steep hill with ledges and the like this is very undesirable, the setup in that linc I posted will eliminate anti squat, but it will be along time before I get around to that.

The problem we all encounter when asking for advice, is that everyone likes to think that their setup is best, just ask 10 diferent guys "what is the best tyre?" and see if they all agree, should I go internal or external beadlocks (I run external :mrgreen: ) it dosent make them wrong it just makes it hard for you to get a definatative answer on what is the best for your perticular aplication.
Peter.

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 04:39 PM
I can see where this one would prevent spring wrap and wheel hop but what bothers me about this design is the fact that the bar has no way of growing longer like your driveshaft. So...when your suspension is flexed out isn't this going to actually cause your pinion to pivot down puting even more strain on your unis?

Yes, and turning your springs into W's in the process.
Peter.

Itsmejoe231
02-12-2006, 04:46 PM
[quote=Droopypete]

The problem we all encounter when asking for advice, is that everyone likes to think that their setup is best [quote]

Good point!! bigok

Droopypete
02-12-2006, 06:51 PM
[quote=Droopypete]

The problem we all encounter when asking for advice, is that everyone likes to think that their setup is best [quote]

Good point!! bigok

It is so true, take Weber carbs for example, I know people who have spent heaps trying to get them to work on hills with no sucsess and put up with horid fuel economy because they can take off from the lights quick, and if you ask them what they think of webbers they will tell you they are great.
Peter.

zukking01
02-12-2006, 09:11 PM
Weber carbs SUCK.

TRASHCAN
02-12-2006, 10:29 PM
WOW!!! I wish I could say that about sums it up but.....:shocked!: thats a lotta info. I think I will use the crappy toplink bar WITH a shackle. hows that for pissin ya off??? 2finger then I get the best of both worlds right?

only prob I see in the future is when I put my YJ's on, then ill have to lengthen the bar quite a bit. but with the cheep tractor bar, its threded so no prob I hope. I dont think I can get this done by gilmer time though. my welder isnt even working right now. I did at least get the steel already. I might just take my chances at gilmer with what I have. Ill replace the driveshaft when I put the YJ's on and do the top link then too.

thanks for all your help guys, by all means keep posting if you have more to add.

Mike

TRASHCAN
02-12-2006, 11:33 PM
does anyone use or know someone using the RRO JP-eater kit? Im wondering if its as good as they say it is. thanks for all info

Mike

Itsmejoe231
02-12-2006, 11:40 PM
For a bolt on application it is fucntional. I used something simular (made my own brackets) but when the stretching bug hits you will do away with all those brackets. From what I have seen the Trail tough kit is probably the most functional bolt on kit available. It gives more flex and a better front design.

Sally
02-13-2006, 12:20 AM
I agree with Joe, plus RRO has done me wrong on more than one occasion.

TRASHCAN
02-13-2006, 12:40 AM
do you still have your old brackets joe? or do you remember how to make them? I belive a shirt and a hat mey be in order if you would help me with that. I want to stretch a little but not the full lenth of the yj's. in other words I was hoping I could get away with some of those sweet ass shackles like Holeshot made and maybe move the frame mount back only a little to gain a few inches front and rear. or maybe even go to my bumpers with the shackles, i just dont know that I want it to be that much longer than stock, I would have tho change everything ( shock mounts, driveshafts, bumpers....ect...)
I was liking the RRO kit because it just bolts up and keeps everything in place, and no ML's required. cheeper too! I wish I had money to spend on this... Im hoping that I can get the bumpers rebuilt the yj's on and the trac bar done for less than $200. Im already $15 down for buying the steel at the scrap yard the other day. so I have $185 left in my imaginary budget.

Mike

(edit) by the way, did I mention I only have about $600 bones in the whole samurai right now, including tires spring over, R&P gears, roll cage, electrical box, snorkel, Pony carb, header, bumpers, hard top, seats, lights, and future springs and trac bar? I dont spend much money on it, I usually trade, build it or do without. but those springs sitting in my garage are just screaming to be installed.

Droopypete
02-13-2006, 01:10 AM
I think I will use the crappy toplink bar WITH a shackle. hows that for pissin ya off??? 2finger then I get the best of both worlds right?

Mike

Mike you are kidding, right?
Peter.

TRASHCAN
02-13-2006, 11:37 AM
YES im kidding!! I would never want to piss ya off guys!!

Mike

but what about the top link with the shackle? should I be kiddint about that too?

If I should ill have to make another trip to the scrap yard.

Droopypete
02-13-2006, 02:31 PM
but what about the top link with the shackle? should I be kiddint about that too?



OOOOOOOOH YES!!
top link with shackle will be compleatly useless, you could use a giant rubber band to the same effect.
If you are going to use a single top link (and I strongly advise you not to) make one with rubber bushes on the ends rather than rod ends, rod ends are great on a race car, but they are very harsh on a road car and don't last as long as rubber.
Good luck with whatever you do.

Peter.

DesertZuki
02-13-2006, 03:07 PM
...If you are going to use a single top link (and I strongly advise you not to) make one with rubber bushes on the ends rather than rod ends, rod ends are great on a race car, but they are very harsh on a road car and don't last as long as rubber...
I've read that the rod ends have too little give and the R&P gears don't always hold up to the harshness of the rod ends.

Also, Pete (and everyone else) thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions. I do appreciate it. And Pete, given the gears and tires you're running I can see you'd have to run something really, really effective. I knew a guy that ran a bar very similar to the single bar at the top (the tractor parts bar), and just watching his rig work, it did very well, certainly better than mine without any type of anti-wrap. But he was running just 4.16s in the t-case, stock axle gears and 31" tires with a 1.6 8v. But too, he wasn't hard on the accelerator either.

Now I'm going to go back to thinking about this anti-wrap thing... (scary...)

Itsmejoe231
02-13-2006, 03:21 PM
Here is a link to a good article talking about different kinds of anti wrap solutions.

http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

Billjohn
02-13-2006, 03:29 PM
Here is a link to a good article talking about different kinds of anti wrap solutions.

http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

Good link.

Itsmejoe231
02-13-2006, 03:44 PM
Here is another:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jayk3/toyota/rear_susp.htm

TRASHCAN
02-13-2006, 11:42 PM
Man those are great articles, sometimes I just need a picture to look at to understand what yall are saying. now that I have seen that I completely understand what yall were trying to tell me!!


i need to put poly bushings in the shackle and mount it to the underside of the axle!!!

J/k guys, think ill do the triangle design which means back to the scrap yard for me, and Ill have to find another shackle and probable have to buy some poly bushings hu? think i should put some bushings in my springs to? I havent had any for 2 years. I dont even remember what it was like to NOT have death wobble.

Ill go sell some sperm and blood plasma tomarrow and see if I can get enough to buy the gas to get me to the scrap yard :) . thanks for all the help guys, I mean it, I would have most certainly put a single wrap increasing bar on my samurai if it werent for yalls persistance!!

Mike

zukking01
02-13-2006, 11:56 PM
Keep on selling that manly stuff. That prabably is a really fun job.

TRASHCAN
02-14-2006, 12:05 AM
Ive got plenty of it, everytime I touch the zuk the wife cuts me off for a week!!

J/k

I will just have to save a little more before taking on the anti wrap bar, I spent some money that I didnt need to and now am in the hole.

Mike

Droopypete
02-14-2006, 04:47 AM
think ill do the triangle design which means back to the scrap yard for me, and Ill have to find another shackle and probable have to buy some poly bushings hu? Mike


I used 2 rear pitman arms from Nissan Patrols, they were smaller than control arms but plenty beefy for my aplication (don't forget to get the nuts and bolts)
Peter.

muskyslayr
03-19-2006, 08:03 AM
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1160.sized.jpg

http://www.zukikrawlers.com/albums/Itsmejoe231/100_1162.sized.jpg

Now gimmy a shirt:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Toldya I was gonna do something like this...:mrgreen:

I went a different route using a link on the front instead of a shackle. And I used a single piece of 2x6 tube, tapered, and added the tubes in the middle for strength, with looking cool a pretty good side affect... I will be shopping around for better joints though...these HEIMs are noisy buggers.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/muskyslayr/ZukiRe-build021.jpg

Itsmejoe231
03-19-2006, 11:39 AM
So, how does it work? Got any axle wrap? Wheel hop?

Oh, yea. I never got a T-shirt from Trashcan.:mrgreen:

muskyslayr
03-19-2006, 12:00 PM
Works great except for the clanky HEIM joints....:mrgreen:

Rusty88SoftTop
05-30-2007, 04:26 AM
Sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead guys but there is some really good info here. I have one question though... how long should the traction bar/anti-wrap bar be?? Does it matter? Does it have to do with where the front of the spring mounts??

Billjohn
05-30-2007, 10:17 AM
Yes, it should end at the same length as the front half of the spring to limit binding.

Rusty88SoftTop
05-30-2007, 01:50 PM
Yes, it should end at the same length as the front half of the spring to limit binding.

Thanks bigok!

oklazukguy
05-30-2007, 03:34 PM
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/images/20030119171608_new3.jpg

So far, from all of the designs I have looked at in this thread, I think this one looks the easiest and best solution for me. I am also going by what little skills and tools I have. It also seems that a person could mount a type of bumpstop or limiting strap to the top of it.

My only question about is, can this type be done on a Yota axle, since the third is removeable?

zukinut
05-30-2007, 06:23 PM
Take a look at this. It was unbelievably easy to make, works like a champ and was nearly "free". I still have wheel hop but we always will, we have leaf sprung, super lightweight rigs.

http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/zukinut/the%20traction%20bar/

Like i said, its strong and simple. I had axle wrap for 2 years, put this thing on and bam its like wheelin a new vehicle.

By the way, i personally dont like the setup you jus pictured. I know thats jus my opinion, but when i think about that design, it allows the axle to rotate up, therefore allowing axle wrap.

Jus my .02 worth. Use it as you wish.

Will

zukiWilson
05-30-2007, 11:17 PM
Did you turn down the smaller diameter tubing or just use stock? My friend used the same set-up on his 1-ton XJ and it works great, but he had to turn down the smaller diameter tubing.

zukinut
05-30-2007, 11:29 PM
Well it whats left of a previous traction bar. The tube actually originally slid in the outer DOM tube jus fine. Then we welded it up, with the slider piece in. The outer piece shrunk and seized the slider piece inside it. After a night of drinking and thinkin we pulled the inner slider tube out with my winch and a big ass hammer. I then turned it down on a bench grinder. Think it took like 2 hours to do it.

So when you build a bar like that, make damn sure not to leave the slider in. But it works killer.

oklazukguy
05-31-2007, 06:56 AM
What do you mean by " lets the axle rotate up". Throwing me a little.

zukinut
05-31-2007, 06:24 PM
the pinion can still rotate upwards, its not fixed as my axle is with my traction bar. I believe most axle wrap is caused from a pinion rotating upwards. But i may be wrong, wouldnt be the first time i was wrong.

Will

Danazook
05-31-2007, 08:37 PM
When you build a trac bar your are trying to eliminate twisting of the axle only... You dont want the pinion to move up of down... But... You dont want to limit side to side movement, front to back movement, or articulation...

The one I built for my red zuk is similar to the pic posted earlier with the spring bushing on the housing side and a Johnny joint conected to a shackle on the frame side...

The trac bar I built for the white zuk is very similar to the one that zukinut is running... I didint build it to begin with but I just changed the design to work better...

I think that both designs are good designs and work very well when built right...

Depending on the length of the bar affects how much axle wrap your have... If the bar is really short you will get alot of lift when under accelaration... A longer bar will not lift as bad as a short bar...

Thats why you get wheel hop... the rig will lift until the tire slips then it will drop back down until the tire grabs enough to lift it again... Its a vicious cycle.. I have seen many broken parts from wheel hop...

I hope what I said made sence... It kinda did as I was typing it... lol


screwey
Chris

zukinut
05-31-2007, 09:11 PM
Ditto to what dana zook said.

My first bar was like this, sorry but its the best pic i had, its the bar beside of the driveshaft.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/zukinut/zuk4.jpg

It was angled VERY steeply and as you could see was very short. It induced ungodly amounts of wheel hop.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v125/atlzj/?action=view&current=DSCI0130.flv

The wheel hop in that video is due direclty to the short steep angled bar.

From what ive read the top bar is the one that matters. The bottom bar should follow the line of the driveshaft.

The top bar on my traction bar is long (goes to a mount i made behind the tcase) and is parallel to the ground. I built a slip and twist style. I personally like it better than the front shackle design because of room contstraints in a zuk.

My new bar elimated axle wrap and has done a superb job of ending wheel hop. I still have some wheelhop but its due to the short wheelbase, not anti squat from the traction bar. If you would like i can send you 2 videos of me on the same trail, one with the old bar, and one with the new bar. You can see how much difference a better designed bar made. I shoulda never bought my first bar, it flat out sucked.

If you need any help on building it, let me know. Ill be more than happy to help.

Will

Danazook
05-31-2007, 10:18 PM
Here is the best pic I can find of the bar on my white zuk... It is a slip style similar to the one that zukinut runs.... I would do a couple of things different if I built another one... but like I said previously... I didnt build this one... Just made it better!!!!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/Danazook/KintaOkApril2007118.jpg